tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post2141066100819866367..comments2023-05-24T07:02:16.492-07:00Comments on By Whose Authority?: Do we need an Infallible Interpretation of the Bible?Catz206http://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-72796949952654311962010-01-13T05:59:39.386-08:002010-01-13T05:59:39.386-08:00Nathanael,
I was wondering if you would do me a f...Nathanael,<br /><br />I was wondering if you would do me a favor, since you have been the one with an opposing opinion to mine most willing to explain things clearly. I don't understand the perspective of those who use this "infinite regression" argument with respect to interpretation, for some reasons along the lines of my original comment here. I've encountered it with others Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-80636036978037693872009-11-04T07:10:05.730-08:002009-11-04T07:10:05.730-08:00Nathaniel,
After having lost my response to you w...Nathaniel,<br /><br />After having lost my response to you when my computer shut down, and attempting to find time to read and re-respond, I've given up on the illusion that running after two little ones and attempting to keep up with household duties gives me the leeway to have in depth conversations like this one. Sorry I've dropped it! Thank you, though, for taking time to talk to me. Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-50848895006772920212009-09-10T07:11:57.289-07:002009-09-10T07:11:57.289-07:00Nathanael,
I haven't forgotten about you. I&#...Nathanael,<br /><br />I haven't forgotten about you. I'm trying to clear something up before I respond.Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-20878724182889229212009-09-01T16:08:56.451-07:002009-09-01T16:08:56.451-07:00The sufficient, but sometimes inefficacious, grace...The sufficient, but sometimes inefficacious, grace taught by the Catholic Church is consistent with Eph 2:8-9. I really hope you can accept this, even though you think it contradicts free will. Remember, though, all explanations of how to marry the two concepts are personal attempts, not Catholic teaching.<br /><br />Response: I think I responded to this above when I went over necessary and Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-17164322247629613672009-09-01T16:07:44.386-07:002009-09-01T16:07:44.386-07:00I find it strange that you admit people to have un...I find it strange that you admit people to have uncertainty, so to the believer, things look very much the same whether Protestant or Catholic. For all you know, you could lose your faith and you may not be saved. The practical difference is really that Catholics believe you can do something about it: cooperate with God's grace. So I believe the once saved, always saved perspective can lead Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-62438299359546515312009-09-01T16:07:15.945-07:002009-09-01T16:07:15.945-07:00Your "whether he knows it or not" explan...Your "whether he knows it or not" explanation isn't consistent with:<br /><br />"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." [1 Cor 9:27] and in [Phil 3:12] Paul says he has not already attained eternal life. And we are told that only those that persevere will be saved [MattNathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-78706536943348075302009-09-01T16:06:29.816-07:002009-09-01T16:06:29.816-07:00Not really. Aquinas believes (and so do I) that Pa...Not really. Aquinas believes (and so do I) that Paul is talking about the invariable number of elect who God knows will continue to be justified until the last day, since God is outside of time and knows all things that occur in time as if they exist simultaneously. So those who God foreknew are these invariable elect, whatever definition of foreknow you put to it.<br /><br />Response: Ah yes, Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-81486726463447927992009-09-01T16:05:23.270-07:002009-09-01T16:05:23.270-07:00Agreed. Yet, I'm suggesting these people may n...Agreed. Yet, I'm suggesting these people may not be saved by their works here, not by the Mosaic covenant, but by their faith in Christ, though they don't know His name, they have fidelity toward him inasmuch as they possibly know him through the law written on their hearts. Even before Christ walked the Earth, since God is outside of time in all eternity. But I'm not very attached toNathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-64059073936272142392009-09-01T16:05:02.790-07:002009-09-01T16:05:02.790-07:00I get this from the Interpreter's Dictionary o...I get this from the Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible: <br /><br />“Paul uses pistis to mean, above all, belief in the Christ kerygma [preaching], knowledge, obedience, trust in the Lord Jesus. It comes by hearing with faith the gospel message. . . . by responding with a confession about Christ . . . and by the ‘obedience of faith’ . . . ‘the obedience which faith is’. <br /><br />Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-81932819389043301052009-09-01T16:04:38.739-07:002009-09-01T16:04:38.739-07:00So what is your view of God's grace?
Response...So what is your view of God's grace?<br /><br />Response: God’s grace has two elements special and common. Special Grace is God’s unmerited favor towards his elect such that his grace for them is sufficient to redeem them and that there is nothing they can do to have eternal life. I would reject that everything is act of grace in this sense. Common Grace is the grace has for humanity in Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-28235940300880385412009-09-01T16:04:17.340-07:002009-09-01T16:04:17.340-07:00I already told you that God cannot be the author o...I already told you that God cannot be the author of evil, and therefore we must have free will, maybe I explain why I think this. We are already starting from two different philosophies though. I believe the ends never justify the means.<br /><br />Response: I think God causes creatures to do evil but God is not evil in doing this and thus he is not the author of evil because he has morally Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-46031573378049991142009-09-01T16:03:46.077-07:002009-09-01T16:03:46.077-07:00Another way of seeing that our cooperation (or all...Another way of seeing that our cooperation (or allowing God to do His work) is not the cause of our salvation is to understand the way that God does not cause evil but allows it. I believe God is entirely good and neither ordains or causes evil, yet evil exists and how so? Because he allows it, even though it is not from Him.<br /><br />Response: Thus, God is not the cause of our salvation but Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-4663884730713038472009-09-01T16:03:32.199-07:002009-09-01T16:03:32.199-07:00Hopefully you can see by my explanations that it i...Hopefully you can see by my explanations that it is not true that our cooperation is something we can do to fulfill a requirement for eternal life, since our cooperation is only letting God do His work than actually doing anything ourselves or by our power. It is not anything we do, nor by our power that we are saved, it is entirely the gracious gift of God from start to finish, sufficient for Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-90657537725701681902009-09-01T16:02:59.546-07:002009-09-01T16:02:59.546-07:00I agree with most of that, except that grace does ...I agree with most of that, except that grace does not fail, but our will fails. And the conclusions we draw are different because of the definitions of "sufficient" above. <br /><br />Response: Good point. So the Catholic view is such that we would a want to say that grace does not intend to save per se but rather it intends to enable you so that you cooperate and be saved. So in Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-85046905449822434512009-09-01T16:02:22.628-07:002009-09-01T16:02:22.628-07:00Hello Stacey,
I do mean "sufficient", s...Hello Stacey,<br /><br />I do mean "sufficient", since "It is a dogma of the Catholic faith that there exists a truly sufficient but inefficacious grace, and also that there exists a truly efficacious grace which, however, is not necessitating."[Fr. Hardon] and freedom of human will under grace. But I don't believe "sufficient" here means as you say "once Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-38438662893554350132009-08-31T10:01:44.206-07:002009-08-31T10:01:44.206-07:00If we are able to choose to have faith or not to h...<i>If we are able to choose to have faith or not to have it that means it is up to us which the author negates in Ephesians 2:8-9, even if we have influences like grace. If grace is sufficient and efficient then we would not have a choice and it would not be up to us, which is what the passage teaches.</i><br /><br />The sufficient, but sometimes inefficacious, grace taught by the Catholic ChurchStaceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-13664485541257745512009-08-31T10:01:10.914-07:002009-08-31T10:01:10.914-07:00With respect to be uncertain: This maybe true, but...<i>With respect to be uncertain: This maybe true, but this simply means that once someone is justified and united to Christ he cannot be separated whether he knows it or not.</i><br /><br />Your "whether he knows it or not" explanation isn't consistent with:<br /><br />"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-19111294735878431542009-08-31T10:00:52.945-07:002009-08-31T10:00:52.945-07:00Response: The problem is the infused idea of grace...<i>Response: The problem is the infused idea of grace is not found in the Greek word nor is it found in the Pauline usage.</i><br /><br />And what if the infusion comes from a holistic view of the Bible, built upon its solid foundation, as the only right understanding that can come from it? I'm don't know the particulars of where the idea comes from, but if you think it's origins are Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-24656563012407294342009-08-31T10:00:30.222-07:002009-08-31T10:00:30.222-07:00Nathanael,
Getting back to our original discussio...Nathanael,<br /><br />Getting back to our original discussion (although we do bunny trail)... <br /><br /><i>Response: Where does Paul define faith in this fashion?</i><br /><br />I get this from the <i>Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible</i>: <br /><br />“Paul uses pistis to mean, above all, belief in the Christ kerygma [preaching], knowledge, obedience, trust in the Lord Jesus. It comes Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-84457339724539449532009-08-31T08:12:14.281-07:002009-08-31T08:12:14.281-07:00Quick question, Nathanael,
You said: Response: Ca...Quick question, Nathanael,<br /><br />You said: <i>Response: Catholics think it is intrinsic to person but it can only be intrinsic to that person if they are given enabling grace so that can either cooperate with it or repel it. Now I believe that we freely cooperate with grace because Grace is jointly sufficient for us to be saved.</i><br /><br />I don't get it. Haven't you been arguingStaceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-9502011306871499952009-08-30T10:56:40.241-07:002009-08-30T10:56:40.241-07:00So if you are planning to show Reformed Protestant...<i>So if you are planning to show Reformed Protestantism by this line of argumentation then you would be shooting down a straw man, but after all I hold to it.</i><br /><br />Just talking to you! Who really scrolls through comments anyway? I mean, besides me.<br /><br /><i>Why think that we need freedom in order for love and relationship to exist? What do the commands in God’s word have to do Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-45921935268948717212009-08-30T10:56:32.020-07:002009-08-30T10:56:32.020-07:00In other words, I am more interested in reasons to...<i>In other words, I am more interested in reasons to be Catholic rather than the convictions that Catholics have about other view points besides their own.</i><br /><br />Fair enough. This balance between grace and free will is one reason I'm drawn to the Catholic Church. That's why I'm trying so hard to explain it. It isn't something that can be conjured up by human ideas, and Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-82671751486425556592009-08-30T10:55:21.311-07:002009-08-30T10:55:21.311-07:00Thus, grace is necessary and so is your cooperatio...<i>Thus, grace is necessary and so is your cooperation with it a necessary condition which together is a jointly sufficient condition for your eternal life.</i><br /><br />Hopefully you can see by my explanations that it is not true that our cooperation is something we can do to fulfill a requirement for eternal life, since our cooperation is only letting God do His work than actually doing Staceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-76443775489050433772009-08-30T10:54:58.197-07:002009-08-30T10:54:58.197-07:00Nathanael,
I hope you have the patience to bear w...Nathanael,<br /><br />I hope you have the patience to bear with me, because there is still confusion. <br /><br />I do mean "sufficient", since "It is a dogma of the Catholic faith that there exists a truly sufficient but inefficacious grace, and also that there exists a truly efficacious grace which, however, is not necessitating."[Fr. Hardon] <i>and</i> freedom of human willStaceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07406517325044009166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-76105586881266677742009-08-28T12:56:31.793-07:002009-08-28T12:56:31.793-07:00On the second point: A relationship is necessarily...On the second point: A relationship is necessarily a free choice. Love is necessarily freely given to another. If like single consciousness proponents you take away the "other", you make nonsense of the concept of love. On the other hand, if you take away the freedom to give love, you also make nonsense of the concept. Since we are commanded in the Bible to love God and others, we know Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.com