tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post4047426808046041904..comments2023-05-24T07:02:16.492-07:00Comments on By Whose Authority?: Questions About Nicea: An Invitation To DialogCatz206http://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-76951229772339501472008-07-31T12:26:00.000-07:002008-07-31T12:26:00.000-07:00David N--I will be posting a response to this post...David N--<BR/><BR/>I will be posting a response to this post on my blog today; take a look and tell me what you think.MGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11961603927935499412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-54868966563313749462008-07-30T14:00:00.000-07:002008-07-30T14:00:00.000-07:00AaronRev. 3:7 simply confirms that Jesus is the ne...Aaron<BR/>Rev. 3:7 simply confirms that Jesus is the new David. That was what I said. However, when the king was away, he entrusted the kingdom to his prime minister. That is easily verifiable. <BR/><BR/>Why would Jesus then use the language of the keys to Peter specifically and opening and shutting or binding and loosing to the apostles in general if He wasn't trying to draw them back to Is.David Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-24266406643515723802008-07-30T09:43:00.000-07:002008-07-30T09:43:00.000-07:00David C,No, that's not what I asked. There's some...David C,<BR/><BR/>No, that's not what I asked. There's some equivocation going on here. I didn't ask about keys (plural) of the kingdom. I asked about the key of David.<BR/><BR/>Did you know the Bible actually tells us who currently holds the key of David? Check out Revelation 3:7 (hint: it's not the Pope). You cited Isaiah 22 as support for your notion of the Papacy going back to the Aaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-13048410142077408672008-07-30T00:13:00.000-07:002008-07-30T00:13:00.000-07:00"Where was the Pope for the first few centuries of..."Where was the Pope for the first few centuries of church history? He seems to have been pretty lax about using those keys. :)"<BR/><BR/>Can you elaborate on that for me?<BR/><BR/>"If the church's current teaching on bulemia is simply a logical inference made from actual apostolic teaching, then strictly speaking it is not itself apostolic. This is a minor distinction, but an important one, I David Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-90487953222203429742008-07-29T16:38:00.000-07:002008-07-29T16:38:00.000-07:00Davic C,Isaiah 22 speaks of the key of David, whic...Davic C,<BR/><BR/>Isaiah 22 speaks of the key of David, which represents the authority or rule of the king, being taken from Shebna as steward over the kings household and given to Eliakim. (Shebna stays in service to Hezekiah as a scribe, see 2 Kings 18.) <BR/><BR/>You seem to want to see the "key" as being metaphorical, which I think is totally legitimate. Who would you say holds the key of Aaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-52081541989950554452008-07-28T22:11:00.000-07:002008-07-28T22:11:00.000-07:00David, 1. That's an interesting Biblical argument ...David, <BR/><BR/>1. That's an interesting Biblical argument for the Papacy, but it doesn't address my point about the history of the doctrine. Where was the Pope for the first few centuries of church history? He seems to have been pretty lax about using those keys. :)<BR/><BR/>3. "Did the apostles have to teach on bulemia for us to see that it is wrong?"<BR/><BR/>Not at all. But now we're notDavid N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-13289836975205559512008-07-28T14:36:00.000-07:002008-07-28T14:36:00.000-07:00DavidThis is another example of why I love talking...David<BR/>This is another example of why I love talking to you...<BR/><BR/>You bring up three issues: 1) Papacy and the preeminence of the office 2) The use of images and 3)Other extra apostolic teachings (eg. birth control)<BR/><BR/>1. The Papacy<BR/>I should probably do a post on my blog on this, and probably will at some point. Maybe I will do a counter post to yours. I will try to keep it David Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-55206391760757157652008-07-28T09:27:00.000-07:002008-07-28T09:27:00.000-07:00David,I absolutely agree, defining terms is extrem...David,<BR/><BR/>I absolutely agree, defining terms is extremely important for any discussion. We don't want to talk past each other. Your comments regarding infallibility and authority are very helpful.<BR/><BR/>I understand what you mean by apostolic succession, but I just don't see how that can plausibly be claimed for everything Rome teaches. The Pope himself is a perfect example. The veryDavid N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-38557770722122103432008-07-28T06:59:00.000-07:002008-07-28T06:59:00.000-07:00I think that we need to truly nail down what is me...I think that we need to truly nail down what is meant by infallible. We also need to come to a common understanding of what is meant by church authority. You and I have gone about this for a good part of the summer. I think I understand you a bit better and, hopefully, you understand me better. <BR/><BR/>Maybe we should start with what infallibility doesn't mean. Infallibility is a negative David Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-27565159978755540732008-07-28T01:03:00.000-07:002008-07-28T01:03:00.000-07:00David,You said: "Did the early church believe in h...David,<BR/><BR/>You said: "Did the early church believe in her own infallibility? Absolutely. Otherwise, why convene a council? "<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid that doesn't follow. Protestants call councils (or Synods, or Assemblies, etc.) too. The presupposition may well have been that a large group of godly men in positions of church authority could come together and with the help of the Holy Spirit David N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-48928529303605581822008-07-28T00:54:00.000-07:002008-07-28T00:54:00.000-07:00David,You said: "To be honest, I don't know that I...David,<BR/><BR/>You said: "To be honest, I don't know that I am qualified to truly convince anyone about the Council of Nicea; the way it was convened, Constantine's involvement or whether or not the bishops actually believed what they signed."<BR/><BR/>Nor am I, really. And the last thing I want is for this to become a debate over the biases of history books or scholars we've read. I think I'dDavid N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-67527623874089063412008-07-28T00:43:00.000-07:002008-07-28T00:43:00.000-07:00My question regarding a heretical institution last...My question regarding a heretical institution lasting 2000 years was poorly stated. We know from scripture that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand and that we will know the true character of something by its fruit. Well the Catholic Church is here to stay...warts and all. The church is made up of people, but when I say that we must not look at people when we judge the church, by David Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-3510068066500912492008-07-28T00:24:00.000-07:002008-07-28T00:24:00.000-07:00AaronVacation has been great. Four boys can keep ...Aaron<BR/>Vacation has been great. Four boys can keep you very busy... Thanks for the greeting. How is your vacation? <BR/><BR/>We need to get lunch some time.David Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-40120531550079320522008-07-27T16:05:00.000-07:002008-07-27T16:05:00.000-07:00"How could a heretical institution last 2000 years..."How could a heretical institution last 2000 years?" <BR/><BR/>There are many pagan systems still around...the Catholic Church should definitely not be included as pagan, but if pagan institutions can endure the test of time, then why not a "heretical" one?<BR/><BR/>"But there is something in the fact that this blog even exists that tells me that you are truly seeking. You are questioning the Catz206https://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-35552929646357855422008-07-27T14:49:00.000-07:002008-07-27T14:49:00.000-07:00"You are looking for that rock on which you can st..."You are looking for that rock on which you can stand. You think that rock is the bible. But the bible without a teaching authority is simply a pogo stick bouncing around in a venn diagram of doctrine. And when you find enough people who agree with where you are on the diagram, you start a church. If you take scripture along with tradition and the magisterium, you have a solid three legged stool Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-85188720653679553312008-07-27T07:23:00.000-07:002008-07-27T07:23:00.000-07:00To be honest, I don't know that I am qualified to ...To be honest, I don't know that I am qualified to truly convince anyone about the Council of Nicea; the way it was convened, Constantine's involvement or whether or not the bishops actually believed what they signed. What I do know is that Arius denied that Jesus is of the same substance (homoousious), consubstantial with the Father. Where do we stand today? Do we believe that God the Father David Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-57927934502701829332008-07-26T17:41:00.000-07:002008-07-26T17:41:00.000-07:00You are fallible and you have to interpret doctrin...You are fallible and you have to interpret doctrine therefore, your doctrine is not epistemologically fallible.<BR/><BR/>Correction****<BR/><BR/>Therefore, your doctrine is not epistemologically ***infallible***<BR/><BR/>NPTNathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-4633363719122185542008-07-26T17:29:00.000-07:002008-07-26T17:29:00.000-07:00David, thanks for commenting.You said: "2) What is...David, thanks for commenting.<BR/><BR/>You said: "2) What is your source that says that the wording allowed the bishops to sign and remain Arian?"<BR/><BR/>Sorry, it wasn't that the wording allowed for them to sign it, it was that they simply signed it despite the fact that they would immediately go out and continue teaching Arianism. Hence the "duplicity." (Archibald Robertson, editor of David N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-86586945935614783452008-07-26T16:27:00.000-07:002008-07-26T16:27:00.000-07:00If you really look at what the Catholic or Orthodo...If you really look at what the Catholic or Orthodox Church teaches in regards to infallibility, it really is more tenable than believing that one can read scripture and trust in the Holy Spirit to guide the individual to all truth.<BR/><BR/>Response: Things are not looking so bright and rosy for the eastern or western view either. After you all you have to use your individual reason and sense Nathanael P. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13545397078211884885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-43822357068646579012008-07-26T15:36:00.000-07:002008-07-26T15:36:00.000-07:00Hi David (Cox),Hope your vacation's going well! I...Hi David (Cox),<BR/><BR/>Hope your vacation's going well! I actually ahve a few minutes this afternoon to blog, so I hope you don't mind if I jump in.<BR/><BR/><I>"So he [Constantine] surely had a hand in convening the council. I don't think one can say for sure that the council was called by Constantine as Arianism was already a concern for the Church."</I><BR/><BR/>It was clearly more that a Aaron Snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551668915973379312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-49389860175355060072008-07-26T07:34:00.000-07:002008-07-26T07:34:00.000-07:001) The involvement of the emperor in religious mat...1) The involvement of the emperor in religious matters isn't too hard to understand. After all, in the ancient world, religion, philosophy,politics, economy were all fused. The temple for the Jews was the vatican, white house, wall street etc. all roled into one. <BR/><BR/>In 320 or 321 St. Alexander called a council where over 100 bishops from Egypt and Libya anathematized Arius. However, theDavid Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07326177059975202341noreply@blogger.com