tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post8698649211732506638..comments2023-05-24T07:02:16.492-07:00Comments on By Whose Authority?: Did The Early Church Fathers Know The Gospel? (Also: Patristics For Busy Pastors)Catz206http://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-44133965262936898602012-08-10T16:57:56.034-07:002012-08-10T16:57:56.034-07:00Well, the Byzantine Empire could not be pacifists....Well, the Byzantine Empire could not be pacifists. St Justinian reconquered North Africa and Italy, Granted, people can debate Justinian here. After the Byzantines lost a lot of their empire to Islam they had to fight wars on and off with different Islam Caliphates to gain land back. Thirdly they also reconquered their lands in Balkans from the Slavs. Then they had to fight the crusaders who sackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-74528731797889813802010-06-12T13:46:21.491-07:002010-06-12T13:46:21.491-07:00I'm adding this comment so i can click on the ...I'm adding this comment so i can click on the "follow by email" option.J. B. Aitkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15616638312087360239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-9410304371399960182010-06-12T13:45:39.421-07:002010-06-12T13:45:39.421-07:00Hello friends,
I just found this website. I am fo...Hello friends,<br />I just found this website. I am formally a Presbyterian who went to a major presbyterian seminary yet has recently embraced the theology of the Eastern Fathers (and the pre-schism Western fathers). I am leaning towards Orthodoxy, but have yet to make such a move.<br /><br />A few words on Duncan, since I took some of his classes. Duncan didn't teach the entire Church J. B. Aitkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15616638312087360239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-9607208562874274622010-05-09T01:42:22.402-07:002010-05-09T01:42:22.402-07:00David--
You wrote:
"The point is not to cla...David--<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />"The point is not to claim that their was little or no agreement whatsoever, but simply that there was far more difference of opinion on some important matters than modern Catholic and Orthodox scholars are willing to grant."<br /><br />Which important matters are you referring to?<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />"Everyone has developed MGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11961603927935499412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-31877764780794875862010-05-07T12:25:49.087-07:002010-05-07T12:25:49.087-07:00JNorm,
Thankx for the links! I look forward to ta...JNorm,<br /><br />Thankx for the links! I look forward to taking a look. I haven't specifically set out to research this subject, but have been somewhat interested. <br /><br />As for the group, I met a lot of cool people there too. Most of them were very cheritable, kind and patient with me. <br /><br />Enjoy your conference!Catz206https://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-2415619273349719432010-05-05T21:30:44.798-07:002010-05-05T21:30:44.798-07:00Catz206 said:
"Anyway, I think Biola's wh...<b>Catz206 said:<br />"Anyway, I think Biola's whole thing had to do with the offical backing of any particular denomination or persuasion (you can't have a Calvinist only group) and staying true in offical classes to what they have said in their statement. If I say that I will be teaching from an Evangelical perspective then I shouldn't teach mostly from a Roman Catholic one...Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-31729669333570326532010-05-05T21:27:31.345-07:002010-05-05T21:27:31.345-07:00Catz206 said...
"That's interesting abou...<b>Catz206 said... <br />"That's interesting about the nonviolence. I will have to check up on that!"</b><br /><br /><br /> I have to go to an AncientChristianity conference soon and so I may not be able to respond after this, but you probably already read some of them in one of the ANF(Ante Nicene Fathers) 10 volume series. Well, that's if you already read the first 2 books of Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-48146869646261171222010-05-03T09:55:42.930-07:002010-05-03T09:55:42.930-07:00That's interesting about the nonviolence. I wi...That's interesting about the nonviolence. I will have to check up on that!<br /><br />"Yes, I am noticing more and more people from protestant evangelical institutions of higher learning getting into the fathers. Is there a Patristics program at Biola? I thought such a thing would of been crushed since the Talbot incident. Would a Patristics program be at odds with the statement of faithCatz206https://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-67031693033276009352010-04-29T07:12:16.311-07:002010-04-29T07:12:16.311-07:00David N,
You are mostly repeating what you said e...David N,<br /><br />You are mostly repeating what you said earlier. So in order to move the argument forward, I explained where and why I either agreed or disagreed:<br /><a href="http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/2010/04/reply-to-david-n.html" rel="nofollow">A reply to David N</a> <br /><br />It was too long to post here in one piece.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><brJnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-77062786186096140602010-04-27T13:50:18.162-07:002010-04-27T13:50:18.162-07:00Jnorm888,
In that case, I don't think it'...Jnorm888,<br /><br />In that case, I don't think it's particularly fair to compare them. Dr. Duncan taught a whole Patristics class at RTS, so I'm sure he was much more even-handed and scholarly than he was in his 1-hour talk to a mixed group of pastors and laymen. It's simply impossible to do the same work at a short talk like that as you would do in an extended class setting David N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-58397001448053365702010-04-26T15:45:44.050-07:002010-04-26T15:45:44.050-07:00David N,
"I poked around the Ancient Faith In...<b>David N,<br />"I poked around the Ancient Faith Initiative website, but there's a lot there. What do you see as the major difference between what AFI is doing what you think Dr. Duncan was doing? What is so different about their approaches?"</b> <br /><br /><br />I know one of the Presbyterian guys, and I sat in one of their classes, and what they do is go through a whole book orJnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-9703999020308900622010-04-26T11:25:12.379-07:002010-04-26T11:25:12.379-07:00Jnorm888,
I poked around the Ancient Faith Initia...Jnorm888,<br /><br />I poked around the Ancient Faith Initiative website, but there's a lot there. <br /><br />What do you see as the major difference between what AFI is doing what you think Dr. Duncan was doing? What is so different about their approaches? I already tried to explain that Dr. Duncan was not at all guilty of attempting to "white wash" church history by making it David N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-11972096175745755402010-04-26T07:21:13.576-07:002010-04-26T07:21:13.576-07:00Catz206 said...
"What do you think inspired t...<b>Catz206 said...<br />"What do you think inspired this great trust?"</b><br /><br /><br />Back when I was Baptist I would here the Bible Answer man talk about <b>"the pale of christian orthodoxy",</b> as well as <b>"the christian historic faith".</b> And some others would also talk about that as well as why cults were seen as being outside of it all.<br /><br />NowJnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-74282603814861614392010-04-25T14:41:18.335-07:002010-04-25T14:41:18.335-07:00JNorm-
What do you think inspired this great trus...JNorm-<br /><br />What do you think inspired this great trust?<br /><br />I'm sorry you had to keep it to yourself so much. I guess I was lucky to find other people at school who shared my interest in Church history...but this was at Biola, a university. At many churches there is not this same level of interest (at least not in this time period). I know many of us would love to see this Catz206https://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-33306516196843422502010-04-24T18:46:41.273-07:002010-04-24T18:46:41.273-07:00Catz206 said...
"so was it for mainly for the...<b>Catz206 said...<br />"so was it for mainly for the sake of argument?"</b><br /><br />At first, yes! They wanted me to change my mind about the issues of the Trinity and Sunday worship....gathering to worship on Sunday. And they wanted me to take their word for it in regards to the Pope and Constantine.<br /><br />The doctrine of the Trinity is a salvation issue.....that's what I Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-72217649066910430282010-04-24T16:30:26.414-07:002010-04-24T16:30:26.414-07:00so was it for mainly for the sake of argument? Jus...so was it for mainly for the sake of argument? Just curious is all. Why do you think you think they held your interest so much? <br /><br />Personally, I got into them because I heard them used in debate and didn't have the means to know their context at the time. Later, when I started reading these primary sources I gained a broader understanding and found myself enriched by how Christians Catz206https://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-67037087347922415052010-04-24T02:18:05.069-07:002010-04-24T02:18:05.069-07:00I followed David Bercot's ministry as well as ...I followed David Bercot's ministry as well as the convergence movement for a time, before becoming Anglo-Catholic in the ECUSA in 2002/2003 (I joined an Oxford movement Anglo-Catholic parish in the ECUSA in 2002/2003)....they really helped me get over the icon issue, as well as other things I still had in my Baptist years, and I became Orthodox in 2007 in where it's common to read the Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-53488802723965111512010-04-24T02:17:36.470-07:002010-04-24T02:17:36.470-07:00Catz206 said:
"I'm glad you finally found...<b>Catz206 said:<br />"I'm glad you finally found a church you could feel at home at. What first drew you to reading up on our church fathers?"</b><br /><br /><br />A number of arguments I had back in 1997/1998 with a few of my Seventhday Adventist and Oneness Pentecostal friends. Before 1997/1998 besides world religion/culture classes I had no real interest in the fathers. However,Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-35669721561262704342010-04-23T19:10:34.919-07:002010-04-23T19:10:34.919-07:00JNorm
I'm glad you finally found a church yo...JNorm <br /><br />I'm glad you finally found a church you could feel at home at. What first drew you to reading up on our church fathers?Catz206https://www.blogger.com/profile/02414685937358420034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-56920773307853271612010-04-22T11:40:16.658-07:002010-04-22T11:40:16.658-07:00David N,
Everything I said was accurate, and so,...David N,<br /><br /><br />Everything I said was accurate, and so, we will have to agree to differ.<br /><br />I have been Orthodox for 3 years now, and most of what you say about us is not what I see from the inside looking out. You keep associating us with Rome, but we differ from both Rome and you on many points. As well as agree with both you and Rome on many points. So please, don't Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-88479250106453292052010-04-21T13:36:39.233-07:002010-04-21T13:36:39.233-07:00Timothy,
I'm glad we could help!
Jnorm888,
...Timothy, <br /><br />I'm glad we could help!<br /><br />Jnorm888,<br /><br />There is only so much you can do in a one-hour talk. His purpose was to show that the Fathers are not simply proto-Catholics (or proto-Orthodox), so obviously he is only going to cherry-pick quotations from the Fathers that agree with Protestant theology. He was by no means claiming that all of the Fathers are David N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00774829757737151477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-8440804078494014232010-04-21T10:20:53.014-07:002010-04-21T10:20:53.014-07:00If you want a more honest teaching of the church f...If you want a more honest teaching of the church fathers from educated protestants.....go here:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ancientchristianfaith.org/" rel="nofollow">AncientFaith Initiative</a><br /><br />Now I may not agree with them on everything, but at least they will do a better job at what you are looking for.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Christ is Risen!Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-51837410470423139402010-04-21T10:07:31.720-07:002010-04-21T10:07:31.720-07:003.) He tries to make an excuse for the early churc...3.) He tries to make an excuse for the early church fathers stress on free will.....by saying it was an over-reaction to the fatalism and determinism of their day. He denies that their belief of free will was similar to that of both modern Arminians and middle age Roman Catholics.<br />He is trying to make it seem as if they were compatibilists. Now, one can make that case for Saint Augustine in Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-5868773775831702862010-04-21T10:07:00.179-07:002010-04-21T10:07:00.179-07:001.) He tries to read his theology into the fathers...1.) He tries to read his theology into the fathers, he can do this with the first 4 points of Calvinism with Saint Augustine, but he can't do this with the 5th point. He ignores Augustine's views of Justification, and Regeneration in favor of Saint Hilary of Poitier's form of "faith alone". He doesn't make it known that the form of "faith alone" found before Jnormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06749159886390240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2109883109617013273.post-73458997027231325282010-04-20T20:41:51.455-07:002010-04-20T20:41:51.455-07:00This helped with a ton of things I've been wor...This helped with a ton of things I've been worrying about--almost as though he was just talking directly to me! I'm glad you guys post things like this.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03831679076974572405noreply@blogger.com